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yet another Microsoft blogger

# Saturday, February 11, 2006

Been there, done that, get your facts in order

From Ars Technica on Gmail for domains in beta:

“This is probably about as close to an ideal turn-key solution for e-mail as you can get. Colleges, small-to-medium sized businesses, non-profits, and others should see this as a stellar opportunity to essentially "outsource" their e-mail—and all that comes with it (downtime, spam management, etc.)—to Google. How many organizations can offer 2GB of e-mail space and a user interface as refined as Gmail? Not many. How many can do it for free? Practically none.”

AHEM!!!! domains.live.com (in beta) offers FREE outsourced email for your own domain. Coupled with Windows Live Mail (in beta) you get 2GB of e-mail space AND a user interface as refined as Gmail as well as the opportunity to upgrade to Premium services so you can use Outlook to store your E-mail, tasks, notes and contacts on our servers. You can also use spaces, Messenger and any other Windows Live service customized how you want using your domain account as a passport sign-in.

“As an aside, it is worth noting that Microsoft's solution isn't truly free, no matter what you choose. The educational version, at least, requires Microsoft Identity Integration Server, which is sold separately.”

What University CTO in their right mind would hand over Directory Services to Google or Microsoft? Remember Hailstorm? Yeah I thought so. It’s fantastic that we allow universities to maintain whatever directory solution they want (LDAP, or Active Directory) and then give them tools to manage the user accounts themselves (we do not mange the domains or the accounts). This is a very powerful and flexible system and was built to scale to hundreds of universities in dozens of different countries.

I helped play a small part in the Windows Live @ edu Program by getting our provisioning system set up at Hotmail, but I’ve seen the work that a small handful of people created on and it’s world class. Expect to hear more about the University Program in the future, but for now check out this video.

Dare, Reeves and Scoble have posts that characterize this news as “been there done that”.

Update: I would like to note that I’m not particularly unhappy with Ars Technica as they did a better job reporting the facts than all the other reports on the topic that I’ve read. They do however omit enough details about what we’ve been doing that it does not paint the entire picture.

 

Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:54:31 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Can I use Entourage with those "Premium Services"?

//k
Saturday, February 11, 2006 4:12:49 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Of course, anyone that signs up for any premium service inside of MSN (MSN Premium, Outlook Live etc) can use Entourage via the DAV protocol.
Saturday, February 11, 2006 4:15:24 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
So, this is kind of crazy. On one of the blogs with the rave review about gmail domains I posted a link to your announcement about live domains and questioned why Google was getting all the love for an idea that was hardly new. Unfortunately, it appears that the moderator of that blog decided my comment wasn't worth posting. Very disappointing.
Saturday, February 11, 2006 4:32:33 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Am I missing something? What facts are not in order? The Ars Technica article looks perfectly accurate. Did they note that Custom Domains have been up? Sure did. The article even says: "But lest I come off as a fawning Googlite, let's not pretend that Google is the first to do this."

I'm not sure why you're coughing "AHEM" at the author since the author explicitly talks about Custom Domains.

As for what University CTOs might do, Google already has one school on board. I think you'll find that many schoolls (like mine) have little to no integration in the IS department, and having separate user admin for e-mail services is quite common.

In short, what's your problem? No offense, but Scoble's post is rather whiney, and now you're attacking another site for no good reason. It makes you look rather insecure in your product's appeal.
Drew
Saturday, February 11, 2006 4:37:01 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Omar: As I pointed out when you announced domains.live.com, MSN charges $20/year for the privilege of accessing my e-mail from a non-browser client (e.g., Outlook), while Gmail offers POP3 access free of charge. Advantage: Google.
Saturday, February 11, 2006 4:40:59 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Phil-

While you are correct, don't assume that we'll never offer offline access to mail.

I'd also argue that a buck 60 a month isn't a lot to ask for offline access to our services.

You get what you pay for in the end. GMails POP service is confused in my opinion. I tried using it once and gave up. I'd rather use a protocol like IMAP or DAV.
Saturday, February 11, 2006 4:45:17 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Drew, the Internet is big enough that anyone can compete, as I am sure you are well aware.

My issue is that the article states:

"How many organizations can offer 2GB of e-mail space and a user interface as refined as Gmail? Not many. How many can do it for free? Practically none."

Actually, WE DO. That was my point. "Practically none" is a pretty weak statement when one of the big three is doing this. It only servers to stroke Google's ego.

Universities, like large and medium sized companies require quite a bit of control over their user accounts, and for those that have centralized directories (most all do) or even windows and exchange infrastructures, you need a level of integration which gives the universities control over their namespace from their internal tools.
Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:26:04 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Omar,

I don't think the article was talking about organizations as in, "companies," but organizations that have to supply e-mail services to their users. I could be wrong.

Even then, Microsoft still doesn't offer it for free because you have to pay for MIIS. How is something free if you have to pay for it?
Drew
Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:17:09 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Drew - A lot of schools use MIIS for other reasons. It's acutally a powerful identity and access management tool. And, it's pretty inexpensive in the grand scheme of things, particulary when you consider the academic discounts involved. Furthermore, there's value in the ability MIIS affords to synch easily local campus directories of all flavors - AD, LDAP, Novell eDirectory, Sun One, and so forth - with a hosted e-mail authentication mechanism. Furthermore, as we have shared with the higher education IT management community on many occasisions, we plan to offer an alternative to MIIS in the not too distant future to enable SSO. Even then, many schools will want to stick with MIIS given the powerful ID and access management benefits it provides on a broader campus basis.
Walt
Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:45:06 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Not a chance I'm going to make my users use the Hotmail interface to get to thier email, even less that I can afford $20/yr for real POP3. I tried MSN domains, and I welcome the entry of Google in this realm.
Sunday, February 12, 2006 9:11:34 AM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Walt,

Thanks for the comments, but that doesn't answer my question. MIIS isn't free, however, regardless of who uses it.
Drew
Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:02:23 AM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Most of us have not seen the beta version of MSN Mail to compare it to Google / Yahoo Beta. Without it Windows Live is (quite honestly) quite boring. Until I see it it remains vaporware and doesn't really exist for comparision.
Ellis
Sunday, February 12, 2006 11:22:43 AM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Ellis, have you signed up? http://ideas.live.com
Omar Shahine
Sunday, February 12, 2006 11:27:31 AM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Drew, I'm not sure why your are so hung up on MIS. If you are not a large organization with > 100 users chances are you don't need a directory service. In that case you can use domains.live.com for free (I use it for one of my personal domains). In that case it's the same as google except:

1) I can use Messenger to chat with > 200 million other users and soon Yahoo users as well making it the largest IM network
2) I can use Pocket MSN on a Windows Mobile device or the other WAP based services to see my mail, spaces, and other data
3) I can use MSN as a "hosted exchange" like backend with Outlook Live

etc.

So while MIS is not free, I truley doubt that you aren't somehow paying with Google (through targeted ads) etc. and who knows what next.
Omar Shahine
Monday, February 13, 2006 10:47:56 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
One benefit of using Gmail is that it provides true support for Safari and Firefox. Windows Live Mail seems to take the same approach as Outlook Web Access, where Safari and Firefox users get a really scaled down unAJAXy (is that a word?) version.

It would nice to see true support for a wide range of browsers in Windows Live Mail :)
Monday, February 13, 2006 11:00:06 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Patience Ben :-)
Omar Shahine
Monday, February 13, 2006 11:00:36 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Patience Ben :-)
Omar Shahine
Tuesday, February 14, 2006 7:08:21 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
I haven't used Gmail in months but last I checked it didn't even have such a simple concept as folders. Tags are very stupid and they aren't how people traditionally store things. Having them as an option is one thing, but forcing that method of integration on someone is retarded. Also, POP3 is an archaic protocol that should be allowed to die. Plus the nice thing about using Outlook Live is that you get truly sync'd (not a detached copy) of your mail, calendar, contacts, etc. As if you were using Exchange. Personally I use Exchange but if I couldn't afford it, I'd never settle for webmail or POP3 when I could have a similar experience through MSN.

Oh and I'm not just making love to Microsoft here -- there's plenty I hate about MS. But one thing they do truly get is the integration and accessibility of PIM and so far, nobody else has come close.
Tuesday, February 14, 2006 7:09:07 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
That should say "forcing that method of organization". Typing too fast.
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