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yet another Microsoft blogger

# Tuesday, August 09, 2005

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PC Update

Well, the fun continued this week. I exchange my Shuttle ST20G5 at Fry’s on Monday morning. It was actually quite humorous to watch the Fry’s folks “test” my PC to really make sure it was broken. I basically had to assemble it for them so it could boot, so that they could see that it could not boot.

Not sure why I exchanged it, rather than returning the whole thing. But I had a glimmer of hope, and I like the form factor. After assembling the new box I could not get S3 to work at all without weird green specs on my DVI display after wake from standby. I twiddled dozens of unecessary BIOS settings that only a real geek would care to even mess with before giving up.

I returned the whole kit and kaboodle to Fry’s this morning. I got a trainee return person and it took 30 minutes, but I got every penny back :-). Here is what I learned:

  1. Never buy a Shuttle PC. They are buggy, the BIOS releases are buggy, and if you read the release notes for the BIOS you’d understand. If you even read the forums for but a brief moment you’d come to the same conclusion.
  2. Avoid ATI Chipset based motherboard with on-board graphics. Maybe it was Shuttle’s fault, but I blame ATI as well. The built in video was flakey, the drivers were flakey.

Now, I have built 3 PCees in my life. All were Intel based motherboards, Intel processors and everything worked as advertised. S3 works on my Media Center, old desktop etc. The BIOS upgrades are stable, the manuals are in english, tech support is available, and I just trust that the stuff works. When you buy an AMD, you are getting some third party chipset etc, and I just don’t trust this stuff any more.

So I went back to newegg, and found a nice SFF case that supports microATX allowing me to get a good old Intel Motherboard (yipee). So here is what I got:

Why am I doing this to myself? I want a Small Form Factor PC, and sadly, none of the big guys make one that can supporr RAID + 2 IDE Drives. I also want a PC that’s quiet and does S3 Standby (Suspend To Ram). That leaves no real option but to build.

Gear
Posted Tuesday, August 09, 2005    Permalink    Comments [8]  View blog reactions

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Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:55:19 PM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
Be sure to invite me over when its done. All I want is a quiet pc. Even my MN-700 router (and the MN-500 too) makes too much noise for my tastes. (There's a nasty hiss sound from both of them)
Dennis T Cheung
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:39:52 AM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
I built a Media Center a while back using a Shuttle and didn't run into any of the problems you described. Many in my group copied the specs and built their own with nearly no hardware problems.

I got the SB83G5 (http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SB83G5.asp) and used an Intel P4 chip and a RADEON X300 PCI-E card. I haven't tried RAID though and never used the on-board video since, unlike the ST20G5, this one needed a better video card for Media Center to show the spiffy effects.

My only complaint is it's quite loud when the processor's going. Despite what the marketing materials say, Shuttles are not quiet. :)
Wayne Kao
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:09:48 AM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
So Omar, what's your all-in costs? Care to compare the functionality of the resulting system against a comparable ($$$) Mac? I concede that the Mac lacks most of the HTPC software available in the PC world, of course.

I've acquired the build parts for a HTPC / Media PC, but fear the kinds of incompatibilties that you describe in your blog postings. Best!
David Mollerstuen
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:59:30 PM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
I'm making a new project that can become useful when you want to find new good computer hardware configuration. If you're interested in details (as I'm interested in your valuable opinion, project is in planning stage), answer me please and we will talk about it.
Dima
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 5:28:43 PM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
Just out of curiosity is there any benefit to S3 state other than rapid wakeup, such as wake from alert other than input? Just wondering why it was so key? Also if this is going to MCE box, don't you want it on always to record?
Brian Hoyt
Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:43:18 AM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
Not sure what was the cause of the S3 issues, but if you turn your back on AMD (and yes, its associated chipsets as well) you're doing yourself wrong twice: once, because you ignore a cheaper and more powerful alternative (particularly if you don't buy prebuilt machines), and again because you're recommending the same to others, thereby dissuading competition.

On a more personal note, I've been using, building and recommedning AMD-based desktops (Intel have a much stronger laptop solution) since 2001 and have found them to be just as stable and robust as their Intel-based counterparts while usually costing considerably less. That said, the quality level that can be expected from chipsets that target AMD has increased by leaps and bounds in the last few years, whereas the price/performance ratio of the whole platform has increased considerably. Not only that, but the power consumption has been improved to the point where the traditional argument against AMD ("it heats up a lot more") is now false (unless you apply it to Intel). If you find the time, please do some reading on Tom's Hardware Guide (http://www.tomshardware.com) and AnandTech (http://www.anandtech.com). Might be an eye-opener.

Finally, good luck with your new machine!
Tomer Gabel
Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:26:32 PM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
I've always been an Intel bigot myself, for basically the same reasons as you, but because I wanted a quiet PC and the Prescott chips are just insanely hot, I built the most recent one with an AMD processor. FWIW, the Nvidia nForce 4 chipset seems to be rather smooth and trouble-free for me.

Conversely, the last system I had was an Intel-based SFF, and it was... not terrible, but one of the flakier systems I've owned. (And definitely the absolute loudest.) I suspect your problem may be more the SFF and less the AMD.
Mike Kozlowski
Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:30:06 PM (Pacific Daylight Time, UTC-07:00)
Wel, i have a ST20G5, it works perfect and bloody fast!
(only Venice 3000 + 2Gb)
Although, i have to tell you that the BIOS is (was) indeed CRAP!!
But they fixed A LOT with their latest bios (FT20S015).
Sokolum
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